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Post by tschaeikaei on Jun 16, 2016 11:28:08 GMT -5
Ok, I've said many times now that i don't know about the Barco controller.
I said i wanted you to give me some infos, specs, data about that controller so we can discuss it on a technical basis.
If you seriously had read my posts on this and other forums, i did nowhere write anything about it is meant to control a 909/Cine9.
Of course, it can, but since i don't know about the internal controller, i cannot state if it is such great benefit like in e.g. the Marquee.
How many times do i have to tell this again.
I will now go another road.
Since you are an expert on the Barco controller, you'll answer Decibels questions on it.
I will answer questions on my system. Ok?
Something in general: Goal temperatures are important. Because delta t between room temp (initial projector temp at turn on) and the heatsinks temp after the warm up time
should be small enough to ensure a short warm up time. The goal temp must be high enough over room temp to allow cooling at all.
If you just tell the system to cool everything down as far as possible, you'll end up with fans spinning at full speed all the time.
That's a switch, not a controller. The heatsinks MUST be allowed to be at a certain temp over the surrounding temp.
Otherwise, it will drift for indefinite time and never stabilize.
Fans will always be at full speed and noise of course will be, too.
It is not necessary at all to cool everything down as far as possible. Every IC/ transistor /part on the projector can easily run at 80°C or more.
Nothing gonna happen.
I've written and explained this many times now. And i won't do it again.
Easy basic thermodynamics, check wikipedia, check youtube, they're gonna explain it to you.
If the Barco is truly temp controlled, it will use goal temps, because that simply is the only possible way. 1. lesson of control engineering.
A controller compares an input value (from sensor) with a desired value (should be temp). It subtracts one from each other and then outputs
an output value (fan power in our case). Proportional, integral or differential working. Read PID controllers on wikipedia.
That's how every single controller in the world works.
Regardless if it controls a cars gas pedal, a heatsink temperature or a moon rocket.
I do not recommend a hushbox, because it must use additional fans to circulate the air in and out (added noise, size, weight and cost).
The system could not circulate air as good as a free hanging projector, so the fans will have to spin faster.
The noise will be kind of damped, but the noise inside will be bigger and the equation cancels to zero.
Is there a sensor for every fan on the Barco or one sensor for them all?
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 16, 2016 19:35:27 GMT -5
I dont know how many times youre going to repeat it, but ive said a heap of times i agree it would be fine for other sets...
I dont go on any other forums, i dont read any other forums.
A hush box is a known way to make for silent operation, and there is no good reason it cant work.
Ive allready said it before, but ill say it one more time for you, the Cine 9 runs the fans as slow as Barco considered to be safe, and fan temps rise, fan speeds rise if required. That is so simple and easy to understand im really not sure why you keep asking about it. That is controlling temperature to ensure it does not exceed a predetermined amount, which is what you call a goal temperature.
i dont know what speeds the fans run at. Its totally irrelevant really, they speed up and slow down as cooling demands change. Who really cares what speed theyre going? How is that important? All you need to know is theyre spinning. The speed is neither here nor there, and it varies with temperature.
I have not seen my Barco drift for any more than a few minutes on cold start up, and since fixing the lens focus issue, there is zero drift for as long as the set runs. If wont drift just because the temps change a couple degrees. It does not drift, so that debunks that myth. You might have that issue with a Marquee, but it isnt an issue with a properly set up Barco ( or an NEC for that matter )
We are going over the same thing over and over here, and to be quite honest im a bit sick of repeating myself only to have you return with the same statements and the same questions in almost every post. Ive told you how it works, there is no more info you need.
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 16, 2016 19:39:18 GMT -5
Read here:
hulio Avatar
Jun 3, 2016 21:01:55 GMT 10 hulio said:
I would rather put a larger aluminium heat sink, instead of an extra fan.
An additional fan will increase the noise plus, you'll have to use a external power supply. I wouldn't mess with the existing cooling circuit, it is very protectieve designed ( maybe too protectieve ).
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 16, 2016 19:41:17 GMT -5
As Hulio says, he wouldnt mess with it, its a very protective design.
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jenum
Junior Member
Posts: 26 
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Post by jenum on Jun 17, 2016 9:06:39 GMT -5
Mate in all honesty if i had gone to the trouble you have and someone came along and said what i did, i would research or at least test before i attempted to argue the point in any way at all, it certainly did seem to me as though you were making an assumption that fan speeds could be significantly lowered, which i dont really believe they can be. The Cine 9 does have multiple temperature sensors intergrated into various boards, and controls fan speeds when required. There is the ability to display temperature on screen via menus. Can you make a foto? Never saw this option with V3.11Everything reports back to the main controller, and this will shut down the set if any fan fault is detected, regardless of temperature reported from sensors. Just this alone is enough for me to have considerable confidence that my projector is adequately protected from any fan related issue, and a warning is displayed on screen as well as an event log created to report the fault. If this was a 909, the ability for fan control is present, but is not actively used due to the commercial nature of the set, the fans just run at full speed. Flashing the controller software can change this.
The 909 fans are temp. controlled, see schematics at the end. And also the schematics indicated that the controller has no ability to affect fan speed. The controller can only monitor fan supply voltage (Pin 1, I406, SMPS2) and a fan fail.
(T_SENSE comes from Horizontal Deflection board's 2,7 k NTC)
SMPS1 subboard:  |
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 17, 2016 11:23:48 GMT -5
Jenum, you need to add the small sub board to the front tray to enable the menu item, which is present on all Cine 9 and CineMAX sets, the 909 requires the board be added, or the menu item for temp display is not present.
With v3.11 that is 909 software. The fans ran at high speed all the time with my set on v3.12, no changes to board configs or adding sub boards had any effect on this. If you install Cine 9 software the fans will run quite slow even without the sub boards. I dont know if they will change speeds with temp increases without the sub boards fitted or not, but with them fitted, the fans will speed up if temps increase. Just changing the software is enough to change fan operation.
The rear middle fan does not run at all on a Cine 9/CineMAX unless required, on 909 software i dont know what it does. I have seen it run at least two different speeds while ive had the covers off doing adjustments in the summer time, it become noticably faster after a few minutes of starting, then slowed again after another couple minutes. It had not shut off, because it was still spinning 5 minutes later.
Cine 9 v2.21 is installed in both my controllers, and every option from v3.12 of 909 software was present. The Cine 9 software also adds more options and menus making it a better choice in pretty much any home application. The downside is the limited scanrate is droped from 180kHz down to 135kHz, and youll never use that anyway.
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Post by tschaeikaei on Jun 20, 2016 3:11:30 GMT -5
Hey,
A hush box is a known way to make for silent operation, and there is no good reason it cant work.
Surely, a hushbox will damp the projector noise. Speaking of an uncontrolled projector, all fans at e.g. 12V all the time.
If the fans are temperature controlled, the hushbox will increase the speed the projector fans run at.
That is because of thermal damping. The heat builds up inside the hushbox, so the projector fans will run faster (if they're temp controlled).
You're gonna add more fans (preferably to the hushbox case), which will further increase noise and optimize the airflow in and out the hushbox.
You see, for a temp controlled projector, the cat bites it's own tail. The inside noise gets more, but the box damps it a bit.
In the end it is as loud as without the hushbox.
But since Decibel said, that hushbox is no option, we'll better focus on other options.
Ok, this could be temperature controlled, but there are other options.
They could use a 2point controller for example. Let's say goal is 38°C.
If temp <38°C-->speed is at "standby", e.g. 5V
If temp raises >38°C ---> speed goes to full power, 12V.
If it falls below 38°C again, fans go to 5V and so on.
That's a 2 point controller.
A PID controller, like we build it measures the difference of temp should - temp is= regulator value
Multiplies it with a certain amplification factor and puts that value out to the according fan.
That's a proportional controller, the main part of our system.
hmm, speed rotation means noise. If they spin faster than needed to hold the goal temperatures, they are louder than needed.
The values of rmp are not gonna matter at all, that's true.
What you explain is an oszillating controller.
It overshoots the controller value and then recognizes that this was too much.
That's kind of a problem in controller designing we had earlier in our tests.
Therefore we made the values (P and I amplification factors) user settable.
If the Barco does not drift, that's good to hear. I've had that problem with my Marquees, and i think most projectors have it.
But good to hear the Barco doesn't.
Sure, it is better for noise to enlarge the heatsink instead of adding another fan. Where possible, the preferable solution.
Also heat transfer between components and heatsink is important.
Measure e.g. transistor case temp and heatsink temp.
I've had over 10K of difference on one of the Marquee backside heatsink transistors.
Gonna write more about the schematic when i'm home this evening.
Regards, Julian
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 20, 2016 4:42:48 GMT -5
Youre clutching at straws now mate.
Might pay to ask Huggy Dave and GregsTV about hush boxes and their effectiveness.
Putting softer fan mounts in there will be more likely to reduce fan noise, the noise heard in a Cine 9 is not so much from the air flowing through the set, its more the mechanical sound of the electronically commutated fan motors.
No idea what is loud in the Marquee, but the XG is loud due in part the the air flowing through the set.
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Post by tschaeikaei on Jun 20, 2016 17:21:57 GMT -5
Too bad I never had a 909 or XG. My PG is very loud (originally), is that similar with the XG?
Clutching at straws? Remember i build a controller myself? It's kind of funny to hear that from someone who
complained about goal temps not beeing necessary and then silently decided that it is the only way a controller could work.
Sure, soft fanmounts are better, as well as a good airflow system.
The only loud part in my Marquees are the buzzing vertical boards, fan noise is irrelevant now.
What matters in cooling is the overall packet.
This surely includes good fans, fan mounts, good heat transfer material between parts and heatsinks, airflow system
from below to above the projector and so on. But that's kind of obvious, at least i think it is.
The original Marquee is not that loud, but the noise adds up if you got two of them directly above your head like in my room.
Thermodynamically, a hushbox is a choke. It reduces airflow if you don't add more fans (to the box).
If you add more fans, the noise gets bigger. Where's the point?
Answer technically, based on sinful thoughts, as I'm not gonna travel through half the world to see a wooden box.
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 21, 2016 1:58:43 GMT -5
You built a controller yourself... Thought your mate helped you? But anyway, how could i forget? Good work, but youre not the first to do it. 14 years ago, ThermalTake made a 4 channel auto fan controller with LCD display and 4 programable fan outputs. What you have created may be more sofisticated, but hey, its 14 years later. ThermalTake were not the only ones either, theirs just happened to be the cheapest at the time.
I didnt complain about anything. Ive said god knows how many times i have no complaints about the fan noise... I also didnt silently form any basis on how a fan controller could work, i dont care, but you still continue. Next youll be wanting to argue over who has the biggest dick.
Honestly, i dont give a toss about a hush box... Where is your researched evidence to back up your claims?
XGs are louder than PGs. Some XGs are louder than others.
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Post by tschaeikaei on Jun 21, 2016 10:09:10 GMT -5
@case
Yes my mate helped me. Did i say i build it alone?
Did i say i was the first one who did? Never. And don't blame me for things i did not say.
PID controllers are and have been industry standard for many years and i did not invent it.
But since we build it and designed all hardware and software ourselves, we certainly know how it works.
You said you don't care about goal temps and they're not important.
Later you said that Barco uses them in their controllers.
I don't need to look at a wooden box to know how it works.
That's just basis technical understanding and logical thinking.
If you still don't get the basic physics, have a research yourself.
You don't understand the basic princpile of a controller (generally speaking),
how would you understand mine or the Barco's.
And then you want to argue with someone who build one?
I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. Just not worth the time and effort.
Post anything you want including your dick measurements, i don't care and won't answer.
@ Decibel: I deeply apologize for this whole shit going on here and decided to stop it.
There's no point in arguing if there's no technical basis.
No more off-topic stuff from me, i promise.
Regards, Julian
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Jun 21, 2016 23:38:50 GMT -5
Im not interested in blaming anyone for anything.
I didnt say Barco used goal temps, that is your interpretation. If the coolest temps were not the safest temps, the 909 wouldnt have the fans running flat out at all times from cold start.
You have no real knowledge of what i do or dont understand. You just assume i dont understand because my opinion differs from yours.
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