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Post by tibimakai on Oct 18, 2018 11:33:38 GMT -5
You are saying, that the second Micom is shot as well, since those diodes were shorted?
Tibor
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 18, 2018 11:49:22 GMT -5
You are saying, that the second Micom is shot as well, since those diodes were shorted? Tibor Yes. These diode's are designed to protect the MICOM chip. Clearly they didn't do their job properly. I should add that in every instance where I have seen this, most of the "Mute" transistors are blown as well. When he checks, he will likely find that Q4241, Q4242, Q4341, Q4342, Q4617, Q4618, Q4607, Q4608, Q4700, Q4701, Q4702, Q4615, Q4606, Q4610, Q4600, Q4620, Q4630, Q4612, Q4602, Q4622, Q4632, Q4611, Q4601, Q4614, Q4604, Q4616, Q4606 and Q4691 (there may be more but this is a quick review of the schematic) will all need to be replaced. These are inexpensive but time consuming to replace. BTW, not all of these may be blown but many will.
Also, the amp will still work if these aren't changed but you will hear noises coming out of the speakers and subwoofer when you turn the amp on because the MICOM won't be able to mute any of the channels during the initialization phase.
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 18, 2018 11:51:48 GMT -5
I should add that I recently fixed an NR636 with these same issues and found that the Tuner was blown as well. I had a dead short on the power signal to the tuner and found that the chip had shorted. These chips are impossible to find so I ended up having to replace the entire tuner.
In my experience, this is the most catastrophic type of failure you can see on an Onkyo. It breaks a LOT of parts......
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Post by tibimakai on Oct 19, 2018 23:00:40 GMT -5
OK, I have measured all those SMD transistors and many(11) of them are shot. There are three resistors around them as well. R4071-100 Ohm, R4707-0 Ohm, R4708-0 Ohm. The once that are packed together are the bad ones. Some that are away from those, are OK. From where did you buy these weird transistors, RTAN430C-T112-1? The 0 Ohm resistors, are regular resistors, right? These would be OK: www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/yageo/PA0805-R-470RL/YAG5758CT-ND/8256003By the way, I have sent the payment.
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 20, 2018 7:25:58 GMT -5
In the Service Manual for the NR616 they list the RTAN430C for this circuit but also the RN1441. They actually list the RN1441 as the primary option and the RTAN430 as the second option so I just substitute the available part. Both Mouser and Digikey offer the RN1441 but you need to act fast because this part is being discontinued by the manufacturer. Both companies still have stock (at the moment).
As for the resistors, the 0 ohm are nothing special. I don't think you need to spec 1/2 watt, 1/4 watt carbon resistors should be fine. In my experience, 0 ohm resistors are used for two reasons. 1) they act as a kind of a fuse and can provide some level of protection 2) In designs where two traces would cross on the PCB, they are the easiest way a designer can build a "bridge" for one trace to run under the other without using a multi-layer board (which gets expensive). In these cases a simple jumper wire would work but the advantage of using a 0 ohm resistor is that they can use the same robotics process as the rest of the components. The process to install an SMD device uses different machines than the process to install "through hole" devices so they gain some manufacturing efficiency by using an SMD resistor that is essentially a piece of wire.
Looking at the circuit (the 0 ohm resistors don't show up on the schematic) the R4071 touches the Main Volume chip (Q4001) so there is a good chance that it will be damaged too. I am not sure where you will find one of these. If you do find one, be VERY cautious with this chip! They are VERY difficult to remove without damaging the board. Onkyo uses a film mask applied over the PCB on this board and then they glue the chip down at 4 points. When you apply heat to try to remove it, the solder goes molten but the glue holds the chip to the PCB. The problem here is timing. At the moment the solder goes molten you need to use a screw driver to break the chip free from the glue. If you wait too long, the heat causes the film mask to bubble. This "bubble" can be up to 1 inch in diameter which will make it really hard to get the new chip to seat properly. On the plus side when it "pops" it breaks the chip free from the glue but now you will have one side (or two) where the traces won't be flat. The last time this happened to me (on an NR636) I reacted quickly enough to push the film back down and hold it until it cooled. But it was still a bit off making it hard to get the new chip to fit.
I was REALLY hoping that the damage you were seeing didn't extend this far. As I said in an earlier post, this type of failure is the most catastrophic I have seen on an Onkyo in terms of the number of parts that it breaks. It took me weeks to debug all of these issues on an NR636. On the plus side, you are on the right path. The first step is always to fix the Amplifier circuit so that it doesn't happen again (sounds like you are done here). The second step is to fix the Main CPU damage so that it will boot again (I think you are close here). The last step is to fix the resulting issues with the signal path (Mute transistors and potentially Main Volume chip).
One interesting note, the way I figured out that the Main Volume chip was bad on my NR636 was to use the Onkyo built in diagnostics. One of the tests that you can run is to exercise the vProtect circuit. What this test seems to do is to apply a small positive DC voltage to each channel - one at a time - (instead of an audio signal) while monitoring the vProtect signal to see if it trips. The Main Volume chip has the ability to direct a signal to any channel (or all channels or any combination of channels). As I said, the test applies a DC voltage to each channel one at a time so that it can identify which vProtect circuit is bad. What I found was that my NR636 never detected this positive voltage so it would fail the test every time. I was able to trace the signal up to this volume chip but it never came out at the channel so I realized that it had blown and wasn't passing the input signal to the amplifier stage. Once I changed this chip out, it passed all the test and everything worked again. ROYAL PITA!
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Post by tibimakai on Oct 21, 2018 15:12:18 GMT -5
How can I be sure that Q4001 is bad or OK? I believe 646 has this IC. I have picked it up for $30(the one with the input issues), if I have to, I can sacrifice that IC. In the last paragraph, do you mention how can I test Q4001, but I can have everything else soldered in (replaced) and I can turn on the receiver and than I can test Q4001? It is safe to turn the receiver on, with it maybe damaged?
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 21, 2018 17:38:48 GMT -5
How can I be sure that Q4001 is bad or OK? I believe 646 has this IC. I have picked it up for $30(the one with the input issues), if I have to, I can sacrifice that IC. In the last paragraph, do you mention how can I test Q4001, but I can have everything else soldered in (replaced) and I can turn on the receiver and than I can test Q4001? It is safe to turn the receiver on, with it maybe damaged? I know of no way to test Q4001 except to turn the system on and see if it works. I have never had one blow another device but I guess it is possible. On the plus side, each of the channels connects to it via a bunch of op-amps and they can handle a LOT of abuse so I doubt that it would hurt those. The most likely thing it could break would be the MICOM but you will now have 2 so you can try it first and see.
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Post by tibimakai on Oct 22, 2018 1:32:54 GMT -5
What do you think, it happened to this receiver? Since all these transistors are blown, the amp section has issues?
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 22, 2018 9:28:24 GMT -5
Hard to say.
My current position is that these types of failures are likely caused by lightning strikes that first take out the Main CPU (there is very little circuitry between the AC cord and the Main CPU). Once the Main CPU blows, it then takes out all the protection circuits. I repaired an NR616 with this issue and could find nothing else wrong with it. In another case, I fixed an NR636 with the same issues and it appeared that the damage hit the Main CPU first but the user was using the Zone 2 circuit (which was running the Tuner at the time) and then did more damage through that circuit.
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Post by tibimakai on Oct 22, 2018 10:11:24 GMT -5
Glad to hear that. I went through measuring most of the transistors, in the pre-amp and amp section and did not find anything wrong there.
I see quite a lot of receiver on Ebay, that don't have audio and video, or no audi but they have video. I'm talking about, 646 or newer ones. What could be the issue with these? HDMI ICs?
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 22, 2018 14:02:08 GMT -5
Glad to hear that. I went through measuring most of the transistors, in the pre-amp and amp section and did not find anything wrong there. I see quite a lot of receiver on Ebay, that don't have audio and video, or no audi but they have video. I'm talking about, 646 or newer ones. What could be the issue with these? HDMI ICs? Let me start with the caveat that I HATE the newer receivers and won't work on them. I have fixed 6 NR636's and they are simply no fun to work on so I refuse to work on the newer units. One example is the voltage regulators they are using now. To save money (I suspect) they seem to be using parts designed for cell phones like this little sucker: TPS22924CYZPR
6 solder balls, each only 0.15mm (the DSP uses 0.6mm solder balls as a reference). 0.000060 oz in weight and (oh yeah) a reflective surface on top. The entire device is microscopic and I need a magnifying glass just to see it. On top of all this, they weigh nothing so they blow out of place really easily but the reflective top won't pass heat to the solderballs so you can't apply heat from the side. This thing is a nightmare to install.
Most people on eBay don't know how to describe a problem in the first place so you never really know what works and what doesn't. Having said all this,
1) If a device is missing audio and video I would look for a voltage rail issue. On several of the 636's I found that the 3.3V rail was down to zero and the root cause was a blown SII HDMI Receiver chip. The DSP system turned out to be fine but it simply had no power to run on because of the shorted HDMI chip. 2) If a device is missing only audio, I suspect that the DSP has experienced cracked solder balls. This is MUCH more common that people think and is a bi-product of the move to Silver based solder. Silver based solder breaks before it bends. Lead based solder bends before it breaks. As we learned from the other thread on this site, corrupted firmware is also a possibility.
The only good thing about the newer Receivers is that they use the "D" rev DSP part which means I can buy the broken boards, remove the DSP, reball it and install it into a good design like the NR-818.
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Post by tibimakai on Oct 22, 2018 14:24:08 GMT -5
So, even the newer receiver suffer from DSP solder failure? I thought, that Onkyo fix that issue. I would be better of, with one that has video and audio missing, right? There are quite a few of them on the bay, with this type of issue.
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Post by tjmotter on Oct 22, 2018 15:16:18 GMT -5
They solved the "wear out issue", not the broken solder ball issues.
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Post by tibimakai on Nov 5, 2018 3:28:50 GMT -5
Finally I had a bit of time, to get back to this Onkyo(I'm working on three others). I have replaced all those transistors, the two diodes by Q7009, and also replaced Q7009. The soldering came out really nice this time. Receiver still doesn't work properly. But at least the display lights up for 2 seconds. All the segments are on, though. Relay clicks, display blinks and the relay clicks again, and turns it off. 11.7V goes into the HDMI board, but there is no 5V at the same connector where the 11.7V is and also missing all of the voltages at those four coils. I'm writing as I remember only, I don't have a schematic in front of me.
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Post by tjmotter on Nov 5, 2018 14:33:25 GMT -5
Finally I had a bit of time, to get back to this Onkyo(I'm working on three others). I have replaced all those transistors, the two diodes by Q7009, and also replaced Q7009. The soldering came out really nice this time. Receiver still doesn't work properly. But at least the display lights up for 2 seconds. All the segments are on, though. Relay clicks, display blinks and the relay clicks again, and turns it off. 11.7V goes into the HDMI board, but there is no 5V at the same connector where the 11.7V is and also missing all of the voltages at those four coils. I'm writing as I remember only, I don't have a schematic in front of me. That is unfortunate. The 4 coils won't get power until the MICOM chips tells them to so it appears that the NR838 Main code isn't close enough to the RZ series to allow this system to pass the diags and turn on the power to the rest of the system. Each of those 4 coils is driven by a voltage regulator that has an "enable" function. In order to turn on, this function needs to see a signal from Q7024 which is driven by the MICOM chip.
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