Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2015 16:43:35 GMT -5
Wow ths3201 is 1,8 GHz. Do you have experience with it?
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Post by gjaky on Oct 1, 2015 10:21:04 GMT -5
Not much, I only have three of them. The ideal feedback resistance values were determined using SPICE macro simulation, that might be off somewhat but still better than nothing. If they would turn out to be not good -which I doubt- I still have a few CLC449 and HFA1100s to play with.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 10:23:40 GMT -5
That is a good idea to use a spice simulation to determine resistors. Are there special libraries for these opamps?
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Post by gjaky on Oct 1, 2015 12:11:42 GMT -5
Yes, you can freely download for example Tina-TI (as Texas Instruments) which is a very good (ahem hungarian made ) circuit simulator containing a handful of TI's semiconductor's macro models. Of course you can use it to simulate general circuits as well, with all measuring equipment you ever dreamt.
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nashou
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Tech in Training.....
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Post by nashou on Oct 1, 2015 14:22:03 GMT -5
You will need more than feedback resistors to tame that chip. I have tried them on the Vim for the marquee and they oscillate a lot. you'll have to try a lot of pico farad cap values across the feed back res. and some other things.
I stopped working with them but might play this winter. I have like 20 of them. I think Jarmo played with them too and got them to work somewhat in my Marquee thread.
Look for the chips with the highest Flat GBW product. That spec is key above all others.
Nashou
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Post by gjaky on Oct 2, 2015 13:42:17 GMT -5
You will need more than feedback resistors to tame that chip. I have tried them on the Vim for the marquee and they oscillate a lot. you'll have to try a lot of pico farad cap values across the feed back res. and some other things. I stopped working with them but might play this winter. I have like 20 of them. I think Jarmo played with them too and got them to work somewhat in my Marquee thread. Look for the chips with the highest Flat GBW product. That spec is key above all others. Nashou Not surprising, they are quite a bit faster than the CLC449s, special care must be taken with power supply bypassing or even with the circuit layout. There are a few things mentioned in the application notes about this, and there are other usefuly guieds for RF PCB design, I try to design the PCB acording to these, and we will see how it turns out. As I said I have CLC449s and HFA1100s as well, so one way or other I'll make it work somehow. Remember the XG currently holds a bandwidth limit at about 30MHz, which is ridiculously low, even if I just reach the bandwidth of a standard Marquee, or the PG xtra, that I will consider to be a succesfull modification
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Post by gjaky on Oct 3, 2015 7:33:29 GMT -5
Today I inspected and played with my (Marquee 9000) 2005-03p VIM. It clearly seems the PCB layout is not ideal for the task. It was unstable even with all original parts in it, but still the circuit could be measured. This board had a peaking capacitor in the HFA's feedback that was tuned to 140MHz, after removing that and with the increasing of the gain, -regardless of the slight low freq. oscillation- I must say that it worked quite good even with the HFA1100 in it. I measured 2ns rise time at 3Vpp output which equals to about 230MHz (with the correction of my measuring rig). Also this was with the MMBT3906 transistors in it. With the BFT95s it became more unstable making it utterly useless. So the MMBT3906s went back and replaced the HFA1100 with CLC449, the LF oscillation remained about the same, and the rise time went down to about 1.8ns at 3Vpp (again with the compensation of my measuring rig) this euqlas to approximately 280MHz. These are very good results to start with, because this bandwidth would directly reach the cascode stage of the VNB.
EDIT: the measured rise time contains the pulse generator's own limited rise time (about 1ns), which was not taken into account, so the circuit's actual bandwidth is higher than the indicated 280MHz.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 8:36:43 GMT -5
Great! If you feel like showing some scope pictures to illustrate the oscillations you see that would be super!
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Post by gjaky on Oct 4, 2015 5:32:14 GMT -5
I didn't make screenshots, and the boards are packed away now, but there was nothing special about it, it was just a nasty oscillation.
On the other hand on friday I've discussed this project with some other engineers at work, who generally know nothing about CRT, but they encouraged me to not stick to this original Electrohome circuit, rather tke advantage of the symmetrical output of the AD834, since the output stage is also symmetrical. Initially I was skeptical but now I also see a great potential in this to and now explain what are the pros and cons.
PROS: -Using symmetrical output would require two output opamps but only working at half gain, meaning the bandwidth (slew rate) effectively doubles in that stage. -The noise introduced by the opamps would be less than in single output case.
CONS: -Maintaining symmetrical output costs ($$$) one more opamp for each circuit. -New inserting point would be needed for the bright/bias+clamping circuit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 5:49:29 GMT -5
That seems a very smart idea. However I just found out that from the 3 best performing neckboards 1 has a h1100 opamp. That opamp is even worse than the clc449. So the most bandwidth is lost in the endstage it seems?
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Post by gjaky on Oct 5, 2015 11:41:02 GMT -5
That is indeed true. So I made a small excell worksheet "simulating" the effect of cascaded stages with individual bandwidth limit. As it can be seen you have to input what is the frequency of the signal in which you are interested, then there comes the bandwidth limitation is the DAC (let it be a VGA card or Moome card or HDFury), and there is 3 more custom stages, this mainly reflects the construction of the this XG project: stage 1 would be the "GAIN CTL" board, Stage 2 is the contrast controll daughter board and stage 3 reflects to the endstage (VNB). Of course exact numbers are not know but everyone can play with different numbers to see how is the performance related to different bandwidth distributions. This calculator assumes simple 1st order filters at each stage at the given frequencies, resulting in a 4th order roll off in the end. The amplitude is directly calculated from the transfer functions instead of rise time theorem (which I commonly use). Hint: if you want to bypass one stage from the calculation just enter some crazy big number in, if you want to add more stage, feel free, you can easily find out how the end result is calculated. Attachments:BW_calculator.xlsx (9.22 KB)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 5:30:51 GMT -5
Nice! munka munka munka If I add 100 MHz in the last stage that helps much more than 100 MHz in an earlier stage. I am also glad the spreadsheet show no misterious bandwidth gain when we combine a 120 MHz moome with a special 500 MHz vim Those things I heared a lot where it is supposed to be the match that makes magic also no Moomes that far exceed the bandwidth of the chain
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Post by gjaky on Oct 23, 2015 16:28:36 GMT -5
So it seems I finshed the PCB design too. Actually I designed two different PCBs, one with the already mentioned BFT95 and THS3201, and the other is more faithfull to the original design, with CLC494 and MMBT3906. I'll order 10-10 PCB from each (because they're cheap) and build one of each type and will play with them to see how they behave.
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on Oct 23, 2015 21:54:12 GMT -5
Well done Dr Gábor
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Post by gjaky on Oct 25, 2015 15:25:23 GMT -5
The PCBs are ordered, just like all other missing parts. This is how the PCB will look like:
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