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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 5:13:19 GMT -5
In the past weeks I tested a lot of neckboards on my 9500 and ran in some problems too. I first like to tell what problems I ran into and how I fixed it. First thing was that suddenly I heard a crack and the green tube went dead. As you can see on the picture C51 cracked. Now this was a neckboard that looked very old. When I look at the notes on the schematics on this very nice Forum (where true hackers are welcomed in stead of harassed I see that C51 has been replaced with 200V versions. So my guess is I had a very old neckboard where this is still a 100V version. Liked to share this one. Replacing the cap from a spare board it ran well again.
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on May 5, 2015 5:41:04 GMT -5
Good stuff, did you replace with the same capacitance?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 6:33:33 GMT -5
Good stuff, did you replace with the same capacitance? Yes I replaced with 100nF and I hope the replacement is 200V as I could not check that. This 100nF is parallel to the big electrolytic capacitors that are on the board. Those capacitors where replaced with 160V, 33uF, 105 degrees. like suggested in one of the maintenance threads of the Marquee. In the picture theye are still the blue 85 degrees electrolytics.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 6:50:51 GMT -5
Next thing I ran into was more difficult. I felt the gods where really testing me with this one After watching a part of a movie suddenly red became very dimm. This was another neckboard by the way. I could verify that after restarting and showing a grid test screen red was on normal gain but after displaying the full white testscreen red started to dimm very rapidly. After reboot it was ok again. So I studied those schematics and reasoned that it must be in the square where they say 'not serviceable in the field' as that is where the protection is located. The VIM schematics show that if there is a I sens signal from the neckboard than the gain on the VIM is diminished. In the below picture you see Q25 that is the transistor that controls this. I tested the transistor with the mulimeter on diode testing and from base to collector etc it measured the same as that transistor on other boards. So I desoldered some resistors and checked but found nothing until I checked R14 that is not realy part of the I sens detector I think but more of the spotkill through the optocoupler near but R14 did not conduct. So replacing that one fixed this issue. So when you run into this you know where to look.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 8:01:51 GMT -5
I think it might become a bit confusing as now I handled two problems on two neckboard but the next problem was even more difficult to solve. This third problem was the gain on a high bandwidth neckboard. I agree that normally you would just toss the neckboard into the bin when you are facing a problem that the gain is just to low. But this neckboard had been modified and the bandwidth was very good but the gain was very low. In practise this ment that I could not use the board on green. I had to set the green drive to 100 and the red and blue drive to 0 and even than the greyscale could not be calibrated. There was to little green. Aside from that the light output was something like 5ftL and that is just to low.
So I had to hunt this board for gain issues.
I started by measuring the voltages on the power rails as I reasoned that low power means low gain. However these measured +-85V and +-5V so nothing wrong there. One of the 400 Ohm resistors measured 370 Ohm so to be sure I replaced with another one that measured 390 Ohm but than the gain was even lower.
In the next post I will show how I replaced two of the motorola transistors in the end and how I found out they where wrong. I still have questions trying to understand how this board could function at all with two dead main transistors. Perhaps someone can explain that. I will write what I understand of the schematics.
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Post by mastertech on May 5, 2015 8:40:54 GMT -5
Good stuff and great trouble shooting. Keep it coming.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 9:59:22 GMT -5
Thanks! Talking to someone else often gives the ability to solve things. In the above picture you see the donor board that I used for parts. The lowest hole is where Q17 used to be. While I was checking each and every resistor that could cause a gain issue the very last one I checked was R51. R51 measured 70Ohm while it should be 100Ohm. Now I compared to other good working boards and there it measured 90 Ohm or so. So I was happy that resistor seems broken! I took it out and measured damn it measured 100 Ohm outside of the board. So I put the multimeter to diode check again and measured between the legs of Q17. So I found Q17 was conducting in a direction it should not. On the other boards it did not. So now I knew this one was broken. How to fix that. I looked at my donor board and tried to get a comparable MRF549 from that board. The first one was not succesfull as one of the leggs detached, that seems to happen very easily. First you have to remove the screw on the bottom side very carefully not to turn the transistor and then you have to desolder the leggs without breaking them. After a long time I succeeded in replacing the transistor and all measured well. R51 measured also the same now as on the good boards. So I turned on the light and was very disappointed as nothing seemed to have changed So back to the schematics. I get the impression that Q17 is in a common base situation. Reading literature is it possible that this stage does not amplify but only takes care of very low output impedance? Does someone know? If so that would explain why nothing changed as it was amplifying 1 time only. Anyway back to the diode tester as now I tested all those Motorolla transistors. Arriving at Q13 I again measured a deviant situation. In the modified board (I was trying to repair) the diode D12 was removed and measuring there this revealed that Q13 was conduction in wrong directions just like Q17. When I compared to another board where D12 was not removed I also found conduction but that was the D12 diode! So replacing Q17 this time it went better and a little faster I turned the lights on and yes! There was the gain I was looking for. Now the second question is why did the board operate without Q17? Is that transistor just there as a compensation for the Miller capacitance? Is this last stage a common emitter? I still am not sure about that it seems to the biggest part in the amplification.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 10:34:10 GMT -5
Now finally I am in my present state where the drive on green is now on 90 and the drive on red and blue is somewhere on 20 or lower. Still it seems that the gain on green is a little lower than it should be but not so much anymore. However after doing a full setup and calibration I measured gamma and it turns out the gamma on the repaired board is higher than the gamma on the other two. When I put the repaired board on red the gamma's are all the same that can be explained because green is driven harder and it seems some part is still driven to hard so its gamma does change? I measure 9,5ftL now max. I think I still have to hunt for another component that is driven to hard? Is there someone that can give a clue what part could change the gamma? In the first stage where the driver is all the resistor vallues are the same as on other modified boards that do have the right gamma. Could an opamp or a transistor measure right with the diode meter but have to little amplification? I am also thinking about measuring the gain exactly in the stages to know where it is to low. How to do that? Put on a full white and use a scope? I have no experience with that. I could make a setup with a power supply for 85V and 5V? Any ideas? Just try to replace the opamp or transistor? I do have to say that the picture looks absolutely fantastic. The gamma difference is not really that visible.
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Post by Casethecorvetteman on May 5, 2015 16:16:03 GMT -5
When youre removing those transistors, are you using a solder sucker or a heat gun?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 16:39:52 GMT -5
When youre removing those transistors, are you using a solder sucker or a heat gun? I use desolder wire. But they come loose very difficult. Best pry on the side furthest from the transistor and take care not to bend them sidewards. They break loose at the transistor and than it is impossible to atach anything anymore.
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Post by mastertech on May 5, 2015 19:18:11 GMT -5
The factory solder is high temp. It helps to flow some new solder and mix it in with the old first and then wick or desolder it.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:37:17 GMT -5
I looked at the schematics once more and I think the whole neckboard works like this.
First there is an opamp that works as a preamplifier. This is U2. Than there is a differential amplifier Q19/Q12. These are in those small black packages. They amplify the difference of the video signal (Q19) and the brightness (Q12). Than this video signal with offset is going to Q21 and Q17(push/pull). This stage is a common base stage with load resistor R28/R13. These are those big long 400 Ohm resistors. In this stage the voltage is amplified to the +-85 V limits. Than this amplified voltage goes to Q1/Q22 and Q13/Q14 they work as a buffer that amplify one time but the output impedance is high.
The common base stage is very good for high frequencies. The buffer stage (emitter follower) in the end has a mirroring build that I do not understand yet. Why do they use two transistors there, one npn and one pnp. I guess an electrotechician could recognise that stage?
But the main question why do different boards show different bandwidths still stays. I replaced two transistors with no visible difference in bandwidth, the boards staid better than all the other. Any ideas?
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Post by gjaky on May 7, 2015 13:13:54 GMT -5
Q19 and Q21 (Q12/Q17) form a so-called cascode amplifier stage with R28 (R13). By the way in the service manual section of this page you can find the detailed circuit description of the neckboards (for all other boards too) straight from the Electrohome engineers Q1 and Q22 (Q13/Q14) is a basic push-pull power amplifier stage, it has several advantages over the single transistor (single ended) solution. High frequency electronics are very sensitive, one must see things beyond the signs of the schematics, there are a lot of other influencing factors not shown in the drawings, like grounding, circuit arrangement, etc. In case of the neckboards the stray capacitances have the most influence on the circuit behavior. All the capacitors and coils placed in the current flow have a good reason to be there, they are canceling out parasitic effects, though parasitic effects are not always the same, all parts have their tolerances, some happened to be tuned better than others.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 4:42:19 GMT -5
Yes I agree with what you say. I included a part of the schematic below. Now we know that the cascode pulls a current through the load resistor R28 I can start to understand the inductors L7 and L3. I guess L7 does peak the high frequencies as its impedance becomes higher with the frequency and that makes the voltage at the base of Q1/Q22 higher for higher frequencies. L3 seems to work the other way around making the voltage at the base of Q1/Q22 lower with higher frequencies. Is this correct?
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Post by gjaky on May 8, 2015 10:57:33 GMT -5
The schematic of the VNB is not the best for didactic purposes, the circuit arrangement and the dual base transistors makes the things harder to see. See the picture below, it is the schematic of a Sanyo VPA videopack, if you look carefully you can see it is essentially the same arrangement as in the marquee, part values are different ofcourse. The output signal of this circuit is the current flow of Q2 (I use the VPA designation now on), because of the current flow, voltage is dropping on R4 according to Ohm's law. If the input signal is low virtually no current flow through R4 so its lower end will be high, if the input is high, a current flow through R4 and its lower end will be on a lower voltage level. That is the point what is power amplified by Q3, Q4. Because there are stray capacitance everywhere a fast and high current flow is desirable, because the capacitances charged with current. From this point of view the two inductances L1, L2 acting as extra resistance at high frequency, limiting the current flow through R4. The inductors indeed raise the base of Q3, Q4, but since this is an inverting circuit that is "bad". In reality those two inductors are cancelling out the 'cb' capacitance of Q3 and Q4 and form a tuned RLC filter, this is one point where your high. freq. response can go away, a poorly set filter makes no joy, without inductors it is even worse. Since the stray capacitance of the transistor has about equal influence to the tuning of the filter as the inductor itself, this is one good reason why simply changing transistors to a "faster" one usualy don't bring any improvement in these circuits, moreover usualy they behave worse than before.
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