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Post by tibimakai on Feb 25, 2021 10:57:20 GMT -5
I know for sure, that the B was recalled by TI. Tjmotter is the resident expert here. Maybe frequency differences?!
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Post by wildone on Feb 26, 2021 8:08:17 GMT -5
I know for sure, that the B was recalled by TI. Tjmotter is the resident expert here. Maybe frequency differences?! I don't think the B chip is at fault. The lead-free manufacturing process and solder balls used are more likely the culprit as the BGA still works after reballing |
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Post by wildone on Feb 26, 2021 8:11:03 GMT -5
The 300Mhz chips seem to last pretty well. Definitely a lot longer than the 400Mhz chips which tend to die after 18,000 hours so I would suspect a cracked solderball.
I have done this over 50 times and have yet to see anything obvious to indicate that the solder has melted. I recognize that you are not planning to remove it but the heat requirements are the same because you still have to get those balls to go molten.
With the resources/tools you have on hand, I would probably try to go with higher heat for a shorter time.
The bottom side will definitely get hot particularly under that BGA which is why I place the probe from an oven temp sensor under there. I set the alarm for 150 degrees and if the alarm goes off, I shut the heat down. This ensures that the bottom side solder doesn't melt and drop parts.
The big variable on this type of job is the firmware. The DSP uses a NAND chip for firmware and sets it up so that it emulates a hard drive (like a computer). Since this device acts like a hard drive, the DSP writes and reads to it. In about 30% of the repairs I have done I found that when the DSP failed, it did so in the middle of a "write" command which caused the NAND to become corrupted. This can be fixed but it is a royal PITA and requires a programmer as well as a copy of the code.
HTH Todd
Thanks, as usual, for the support. I would ask more questions...but I think that's me just delaying the inevitable....I guess I'll have to "man up" and do the actual work  I'll try your set up (cover up nearby parts, cut out foil for "edging" around the bga, etc.). 1 last question for clarity....This may sound like a dumb or obvious question...you talk about moving your wand around over the chip. Is your expectation that you can heat the chip from the top and that will melt the solder balls (heat transferring from the top of the chip, thru it and down to melt the solder balls)? Or do you move the wand around and ensure that most, or a lot, of the hot air flows under the chip for more direct heating of the solder balls (seems the more obvious to me)? Thx...Steph |
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Post by wildone on Feb 26, 2021 8:17:30 GMT -5
It would be a good idea to get a cheap K-type temperature probe to monitor the PCB's temperature (next to the BGA) as lead-free solder needs in excess of 220C for solder flow. I found that using a bottom heater to raise the PCB temp to 220-230C made the job a lot easier. If I just reflowed the BGA chip to the point where I could move it slightly (ie lead-free solder flow), the unit would eventually failed again after a few months later and it was not a permanent fix. Reballing with lead solder is the way to go  |
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Post by wildone on Feb 26, 2021 9:19:12 GMT -5
Thx Todd. Appreciate the continued help and support. I discovered abt the solder on top. It melted long before I thought the BGA solder would melt, even tho I continued heating for another 60 secs or so. So, 435 C? Must be a lot of heat loss to get temp under the BGA up to the 180 C. That might explain the lack of success I had. The heat gun I used had 750/1000 F settings and I set it for 750 F. Either too low of temp or not long enough time to heat. Guess I'll have to go to the 1000 F setting (and make sure the chip doesn't get moved by the stronger air flow or turn a dark brown As for the hot regulators underneath...would it help to put in a small fan (or some kind of airflow redirection) to redistribute the heat elsewhere (like towards an opening in the chassis/cover)? Maybe get really adventurous and redesign those regulator circuits to reduce the heat dissipation....maybe not... Cheers....Steph The solder balls are underneath the chip so you need to measure the temperature of the PCB next to the BGA and don't forget if the hot gun is too hot it would bubble the surface of the chip making it a fried-chip |
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Post by lowrez on Jul 20, 2021 0:49:41 GMT -5
Hi. First post here. I bought two TX-NR818 last week, after seeing the easy no fix reflow procedure all over the internet (yeah, i know) . Both of them show ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? on both DSPs.. No USB, no NET. All voltages are present. HDMI and OSD are working just the way they should. First of them had some work on it, board had changed color around the 1st DSP and flux residue (shitty job) and there was no resistance across the 20MHz quartz. So, i did a refloat, thinking its a cracked solder ball. No dice. Took the DSP off the board, cleaned it, and measured the pads directly. It was open line so.. i`ll order another one from aliexpress. Oh and the silk screen under the DSP was.. scraped off in small areas around the pads, exposing the viases (even worse job, it was reballed it seems).. i`ll have to fix that too. On the second 818 however, the 1st DSP seems fine, i have a resistance at the quartz terminals, 20MHz on it, 1.2V is also present, so it seems to be okay. However, same ? ? ? ? ? ? in the menu. Do you guys think i should try swapping the NAND across the boards? Or swap the DSP from the 2nd to the first board? Is there any risk (software related) in doing so? Thanks! |
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Post by tibimakai on Jul 20, 2021 10:08:09 GMT -5
I'm no expert in this type of stuff, but just an idea, maybe it is a corrupted firmware?!
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Post by lowrez on Jul 20, 2021 10:44:06 GMT -5
I'm no expert in this type of stuff, but just an idea, maybe it is a corrupted firmware?! That's why i was asking about the nand chip.. It contains the linux filesystem from what i did read in this forum. |
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Post by lowrez on Jul 22, 2021 0:44:09 GMT -5
Update. I can`t get serial to work with the DSP no matter what i try. Used two adapters, one is a CP2102 (3.3V UART) and the second on was a CH341A clone modded for 3.3V operation, just like in this thread repairalmostanything.com/thread/850/tutorial-flash-onkyo-main-microcontrollerUsed all baudrates.. Then i connected them together to confirm both are working, opened putty for one, and tera term for the other, copied files and everything. So they work. I`ll try later today with a PL2303HX.. Guessing the 1st DSP is bye bye? Oh by the way.. is 3.3V on the reset line OK? Should it be lower or higher voltage? |
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Post by comfis on Feb 14, 2022 18:01:03 GMT -5
Im trying to solve usual problems concerning receivers Onkyo (TX-NR414 typically), Pioneer and other product. Well known common
problem is DTS chip, which is torn off, and consequently problems with software stored in NAND flash. This problem can be often fixed by
reballing DTS chip and a programing new software. But there are some receivers, where even if new DTS chip was used and new reliable sofware
in new flash carrier, remain in unchanged state. All seems to be ok, display is lit, but output relays are still not activated. Measuring
prove, that all levels of supply voltages for DTS are correct, crystal clock is running, reset pin is not active - and on DTS itself no
activity occurs. No activity on RAM or Flash memory pins at all. Boot0 - Boot7 pins are in state for NAND booting. It´s strange, that on DTS pins
C2 and E3, which is marked as 1.8V supply for USB part, could be found 2.8V, which are supplied from DTS, not external circuitry. This problem
is concernig more Onkyo and Pioneer receivers, and i don´t know, what to do.Do you have any advice or solution ,please ?
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nodols
Junior Member
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Post by nodols on Dec 31, 2022 13:38:06 GMT -5
Hi all, I recently discovered this GREAT forum. I have done a few reflowing/reballing the Onkyo receivers with the dodgy DTS chip with some success and quite a few heavy duty "paper weights/boat anchors". Could anyone please tell me the differences between the B,"D B4" and "D B5" version of the DTS chip? I believe the main culprit is purely the early and "dodgy" lead-free manufacturing process rather than the "B" version of the chip? Can anyone confirm this? Also, does anyone know the replacement DTS chip from Aliexpress are lead or lead-free solder balls? I had different answers from the sellers so tent to use the lead-free temperature profile previously. Cheers all. Based on what I have read so far, it is because of what was set in the ROHS standard in minimizing the use of hazardous materials, lead being one of them. Lead as we know it is quite malleable even in higher temperature. You heat it up and it just starts to melt and when cold down it goes back to its solid form. That's how manufacturers set melting temperatures. With the lesser lead percentage in the ROHS requirements, these solders becomes more rigid and hard that instead of melting, cracks, under constant heating and cooling. Thus, these infinite issues encountered. I hope Todd tjmotter is still here, as I'm also currently slumped with Onkyo's, Pioneers, and even Marants (not so much) with this no sound issue. Managed to fix one Onkyo on a reflow that he prescribed, 100deg C bottom and 435 deg C on top. I have another one which I did a reflow twice but still got these ****** in DSP codes. Also, got a weird "muting" code on top of the codes. Might be the muting circuit that's busted? |
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Post by tibimakai on Jan 3, 2023 11:41:57 GMT -5
I had one with bad mute section, IC and twenty some transistors(hard to find them) replaced. Todd helped me with that repair. He rarely visits here. I believe he is done with this hobby.
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nodols
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by nodols on Jan 3, 2023 21:22:05 GMT -5
I had one with bad mute section, IC and twenty some transistors(hard to find them) replaced. Todd helped me with that repair. He rarely visits here. I believe he is done with this hobby. I'm just wondering why the asterisks in the firmware code? If there are bad muting transistors or a bad IC will it throw the code? Also, as Todd previously mentioned that one can watch the code while the AVR is booting, can we still do that with newer receivers, many don't have the RS232 ports anymore. |
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Post by tibimakai on Jan 4, 2023 11:30:51 GMT -5
From my experience, which is not a lot, when I see question marks, I reheat the DSP, and if the IC is still good(a lot of them were recalled, if you are unaware of that), it should revive the IC. On Aliexpress most of them are fakes and won't work. Todd was buying broken boards from newer receivers(newer model ICs did not have this issue), and using original newer ICs. He was reballing them.
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Post by tjmotter on Jan 5, 2023 21:43:19 GMT -5
Apologies for the delay in responding. I do check this site from time to time but at some point I deleted all cookies and forgot to login again so I didn't realize I had been tagged.
To answer your questions: The list below are the most common variants used in an Onkyo
D830K013BZKB300 - 300MHz part used in the NR708, NR3007, NR3008 etc. This is a "B" variant which means it WILL wear out.
D830K013BZKB400 - 400MHz part used in the NR616, NR818, NR709 etc. This is a "B" variant which means it WILL wear out.
D830K013DZKB400 - 400MHz part used in the NR626, NR828 etc. This is a "D" variant which means it will NOT wear out.
D830K013DZKB456 - sometimes listed as a ..KB5, 456MHz part used in the NR636, NR838 etc. This is a "D" variant which means it will NOT wear out.
TI will NOT sell these parts to anyone but Onkyo so you cannot buy real parts from AliExpress, Alibaba, eBay or ANYONE else. Anything you find will have been pulled from a dead Onkyo board. Most are "B" variant chips that have had the top of the chip scraped clean and then had new printing added making them look like "D" parts. The only valid source I have found is to buy a dead HDMI board from eBay that has the good "D" chip, pull it off, reball it and install it on the board that I am fixing. I keep finding people who want to try Ali or Ebay. Knock yourself out but I can guarantee that you will be ripped off. If you want to cut some time out, I would be happy to sell you some of the $300 worth of these chips I have bought that were all rip offs. Most don't work and those that did, only worked for a couple of months. Upon close examination, the new printing on the top is completely wrong and all of these chips are junk.
Note that the the 456 part can be utilized in place of a BZKB300 or an BZKB400. The reason for this is that it will happily run with either a 20Mhz clock (400Mhz) or a 24MHz clock (300Mhz).
When you see ***** in the firmware screen, it means that that subsystem is not booting. The problem could be the TI chip or, it could be corrupted firmware. I have also seen issues with chips booting caused by bad voltages and/or bad components but the most common is that the chip has failed. Most of the "B" chips seem to last about 18,000 hours. Anything close to this and the chip is pretty much worn out. You may be able to get it working again with a reflow or a reball but it simply isn't going to last. I have the TI recall document around here somewhere but the root of the problem is that the "B" chips (and older "A" chips) don't have enough buffers and eventually just wear out. As I stated above, the only option that is guaranteed to work properly is to replace the chip with a "D" variant.
If the muting circuit has failed, you will see one of two things. 1) the Mute function won't work and you will hear popping noises when you change between sources. 2) you will have no sound on one or more channels.
In the case of #1, an Onkyo will automatically mute the outputs when you switch between sources (like FM to DVD). It does this to discharge the inputs so that you don't get these "popping" noises. Since pressing MUTE simply turns on a series of transistors that shunt the input signal to ground, it effectively discharges each circuit. If the transistor is blown "open", you get the popping noise. In the case of #2, if the transistor is blown "shorted", it simply shunts all signals to ground and you get no sound.
Neither of these conditions will have any effect on the firmware levels reported on the front screen.
HTH
todd
Hi all, I recently discovered this GREAT forum. I have done a few reflowing/reballing the Onkyo receivers with the dodgy DTS chip with some success and quite a few heavy duty "paper weights/boat anchors". Could anyone please tell me the differences between the B,"D B4" and "D B5" version of the DTS chip? I believe the main culprit is purely the early and "dodgy" lead-free manufacturing process rather than the "B" version of the chip? Can anyone confirm this? Also, does anyone know the replacement DTS chip from Aliexpress are lead or lead-free solder balls? I had different answers from the sellers so tent to use the lead-free temperature profile previously. Cheers all. Based on what I have read so far, it is because of what was set in the ROHS standard in minimizing the use of hazardous materials, lead being one of them. Lead as we know it is quite malleable even in higher temperature. You heat it up and it just starts to melt and when cold down it goes back to its solid form. That's how manufacturers set melting temperatures. With the lesser lead percentage in the ROHS requirements, these solders becomes more rigid and hard that instead of melting, cracks, under constant heating and cooling. Thus, these infinite issues encountered. I hope Todd tjmotter is still here, as I'm also currently slumped with Onkyo's, Pioneers, and even Marants (not so much) with this no sound issue. Managed to fix one Onkyo on a reflow that he prescribed, 100deg C bottom and 435 deg C on top. I have another one which I did a reflow twice but still got these ****** in DSP codes. Also, got a weird "muting" code on top of the codes. Might be the muting circuit that's busted? |
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