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Post by geduxaz on Jan 8, 2023 15:27:17 GMT -5
The list below are the most common variants used in an Onkyo
D830K013BZKB300 - 300MHz part used in the NR708, NR3007, NR3008 etc. This is a "B" variant which means it WILL wear out.
D830K013BZKB400 - 400MHz part used in the NR616, NR818, NR709 etc. This is a "B" variant which means it WILL wear out.
D830K013DZKB400 - 400MHz part used in the NR626, NR828 etc. This is a "D" variant which means it will NOT wear out.
D830K013DZKB456 - sometimes listed as a ..KB5, 456MHz part used in the NR636, NR838 etc. This is a "D" variant which means it will NOT wear out.
[/quote] Good day! Can we check what chip vesion is in from the linux boot/console? Like chip ID or something in that way? |
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Post by tjmotter on Jan 8, 2023 20:18:18 GMT -5
I don't believe that you can gather the chip part number from the Linux console. While you likely run a CPUID program, it is only going to pickup the ARM based CPU info. TI has added a pile of circuitry around the ARM CPU which is why (as their rep explained to me), the can't sell this chip. Apparently, there are numerous licensing issues with DTS, Dolby etc involved. The easiest way is to just look at the chip. The part number will be clearly written on it. The printing on the chip is abbreviated for space and would look like this:
D830K013BZKB300 - D830K013BZKB3
D830K013BZKB400 - D830K013BZKB4
D830K013DZKB400 - D830K013DZKB4
D830K013DZKB456 - D830K013DZKB5
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nodols
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Post by nodols on Jan 11, 2023 11:07:51 GMT -5
Apologies for the delay in responding. I do check this site from time to time but at some point I deleted all cookies and forgot to login again so I didn't realize I had been tagged.
To answer your questions: The list below are the most common variants used in an Onkyo
D830K013BZKB300 - 300MHz part used in the NR708, NR3007, NR3008 etc. This is a "B" variant which means it WILL wear out.
D830K013BZKB400 - 400MHz part used in the NR616, NR818, NR709 etc. This is a "B" variant which means it WILL wear out.
D830K013DZKB400 - 400MHz part used in the NR626, NR828 etc. This is a "D" variant which means it will NOT wear out.
D830K013DZKB456 - sometimes listed as a ..KB5, 456MHz part used in the NR636, NR838 etc. This is a "D" variant which means it will NOT wear out.
TI will NOT sell these parts to anyone but Onkyo so you cannot buy real parts from AliExpress, Alibaba, eBay or ANYONE else. Anything you find will have been pulled from a dead Onkyo board. Most are "B" variant chips that have had the top of the chip scraped clean and then had new printing added making them look like "D" parts. The only valid source I have found is to buy a dead HDMI board from eBay that has the good "D" chip, pull it off, reball it and install it on the board that I am fixing. I keep finding people who want to try Ali or Ebay. Knock yourself out but I can guarantee that you will be ripped off. If you want to cut some time out, I would be happy to sell you some of the $300 worth of these chips I have bought that were all rip offs. Most don't work and those that did, only worked for a couple of months. Upon close examination, the new printing on the top is completely wrong and all of these chips are junk.
Note that the the 456 part can be utilized in place of a BZKB300 or an BZKB400. The reason for this is that it will happily run with either a 20Mhz clock (400Mhz) or a 24MHz clock (300Mhz).
When you see ***** in the firmware screen, it means that that subsystem is not booting. The problem could be the TI chip or, it could be corrupted firmware. I have also seen issues with chips booting caused by bad voltages and/or bad components but the most common is that the chip has failed. Most of the "B" chips seem to last about 18,000 hours. Anything close to this and the chip is pretty much worn out. You may be able to get it working again with a reflow or a reball but it simply isn't going to last. I have the TI recall document around here somewhere but the root of the problem is that the "B" chips (and older "A" chips) don't have enough buffers and eventually just wear out. As I stated above, the only option that is guaranteed to work properly is to replace the chip with a "D" variant.
If the muting circuit has failed, you will see one of two things. 1) the Mute function won't work and you will hear popping noises when you change between sources. 2) you will have no sound on one or more channels.
In the case of #1, an Onkyo will automatically mute the outputs when you switch between sources (like FM to DVD). It does this to discharge the inputs so that you don't get these "popping" noises. Since pressing MUTE simply turns on a series of transistors that shunt the input signal to ground, it effectively discharges each circuit. If the transistor is blown "open", you get the popping noise. In the case of #2, if the transistor is blown "shorted", it simply shunts all signals to ground and you get no sound.
Neither of these conditions will have any effect on the firmware levels reported on the front screen.
HTH
todd
Based on what I have read so far, it is because of what was set in the ROHS standard in minimizing the use of hazardous materials, lead being one of them. Lead as we know it is quite malleable even in higher temperature. You heat it up and it just starts to melt and when cold down it goes back to its solid form. That's how manufacturers set melting temperatures. With the lesser lead percentage in the ROHS requirements, these solders becomes more rigid and hard that instead of melting, cracks, under constant heating and cooling. Thus, these infinite issues encountered. I hope Todd tjmotter is still here, as I'm also currently slumped with Onkyo's, Pioneers, and even Marants (not so much) with this no sound issue. Managed to fix one Onkyo on a reflow that he prescribed, 100deg C bottom and 435 deg C on top. I have another one which I did a reflow twice but still got these ****** in DSP codes. Also, got a weird "muting" code on top of the codes. Might be the muting circuit that's busted? Hi Todd, thanks for the detailed response. So I'm guessing it's either a busted DSP chip which or a corrupted firmware. I did a reflow which you recommended, 100 under then 435 on top, which I got another Onkyo to work. But this one didn't. Did it twice and still nothing. Might need a total reball, but I'm putting it on hold for now. Still getting tools and parts for that. Also, this could be my first reball if I have to, so reading on that part as well before going all out. Regarding corrupted firmware. How do I go about with that? I'm thinking it involves the removal of a chip and reprogramming it? What tools do I need? |
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Post by tjmotter on Jan 11, 2023 21:50:59 GMT -5
yes, fixing firmware issues is a big pain. First, you need a good working copy for the model you are working on. Then, you need to get your hands on a programmer (I use a FlashCat) and finally you need to polish your soldering skills because you will have to remove the NAND flash that the firmware is hosted on.
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nodols
Junior Member
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Post by nodols on Jan 14, 2023 14:15:06 GMT -5
yes, fixing firmware issues is a big pain. First, you need a good working copy for the model you are working on. Then, you need to get your hands on a programmer (I use a FlashCat) and finally you need to polish your soldering skills because you will have to remove the NAND flash that the firmware is hosted on. It's proving to be a daunting uphill battle from here on in. Close to impossible to find working firmware, wish manufacturers had a repository for them. Desolding and soldering tiny tiny pins, and tools that you might only use a couple times. Not really sure why I'm doing this lol.  I'm looking into the cheaper RT809H programmer. Just weighing if it's a worthwhile investment especially market for used receivers nowadays are at the lower ends. Might not be a quick turn around. But in the bigger picture might be good to learn newer things. I just invested in a siglent digital oscilloscope will arrive in a few days. Newer scopes appears to be indispensable with newer I2S bus protocol, or I don't know probably in over my head with this. But thinking might be easier for to have a quicker readout than my trusty analog scope. |
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Post by tjmotter on Jan 14, 2023 18:36:12 GMT -5
This might be cheaper. Flashcat's work pretty well for this type of work. www.embeddedcomputers.net/products/FlashcatUSB_Mach1/The Flashcat Mach 1 is $99 and the TSOP-48 adapter is $18. As I noted, I use one of these for most of my programming needs. I actually have a couple of flashcats. Other models support both NAND as well as having adapters available for 8 pin EEPROM's, NOR Flash parts and piles more. I use the test clip all the time when I have to change the personality firmware on the Main CPU's of an Onkyo because with the test clip, I can change the software with the chip still soldered down.
This model for example has a whole host of adapters you can use for pretty much every programmable device out there. It is also a little less expensive to get started ($44.99) because it is not as fast.
There is a wide variety of adapters available:
And this model also supports most of the test clips (you should confirm with the site owner first. he responds pretty quickly)
HTH Todd |
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nodols
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Post by nodols on Jan 22, 2023 1:22:28 GMT -5
Something to move that heat would definitely help. They already have a decent sized heat sink so moving that air is the best option.
Note that it states a maximum temp of 260 degrees Celsius but that is the rating for the top of the chip. The challenge I had was that heat output of the wand doesn't necessarily translate directly to the temperature at the top of the chip. There are a couple of variables here such as
1) how close your wand is to the top of chip - I tend to keep it about an inch above so the temp I use helps compensate for the heat dissipation at that distance 2) while you are doing this, the air is circulating around which reduces the temp at the top 3) my heat wand is about 25% of the size of the chip so I have to move it in a circular direction around the top of the chip which also affects the heat dissipation
When I first started doing this I had my wife hold an IR Thermometer to try to measure the temp on the top of the chip which is how I ended up at 435 degrees. You will need to account for these variables when you try this.
This document also shows that there are multiple stages for the temp. The preheat (from the bottom) accounts for the startup period. I always try to keep the actual wand time within the 90 seconds (+-30 seconds) + 30-60 seconds they show for the maximum total time. The way I manage this is to address the initial 60 seconds (90 minus 30) by moving my wand more quickly in the circular motion. I then move it a little closer and slow down my circular motion for the next 30 seconds to get to the peak temp. At this point, I try using my suction attachment to lift the chip. If it doesn't move easily, I hit it for another 30 seconds (total time is 60+60=120 seconds). If this doesn't work (like on a 708 or a 3007/3008) I shut everything down, let it cool off for at least 30 minutes then try again going to the maximum pre-time of 90 seconds and then the maximum max time of 60 seconds for a total of 2 min 30sec.
This approach has always worked for me but with a different system, you mileage may vary. Rather than using the higher heat setting you may just want to extend the pre-heat time to the full 90 seconds and then move the wand a little closer for another 60 seconds.
HTH Todd
I'll chk out the TI link. Thx! Boy, it is a complicated process. My plan is to not necessarily remove the chip. Just to heat it enough to resolder any loose connections. As for preheating from the bottom....don't remember which receiver, but 1 of them had a load of SMD parts mounted directly on the other side of the PCB from the BGA chip. If I do try to preheat from the bottom, I'll have to be very careful not to blow off any parts. I ordered up a 2nd heat gun where the low temp is 532 F (~278 C). Is that too low to be useful, or would I just need to reflow longer? Or should I stick with the other gun which has the low of 750 F/400 C.
Any obvious indicators that will let me know the solder is melting/has melted under the BGA chip? I have the No Clean flux. Someone mentioned in a video that one indicator is that the flux starts to bubble. Not sure how valid that would be. The first time I did it the flux looked like it evaporated (certainly on top of the chip) but never seemed to bubble.
Of course, this all presumes the chip is OK and it *is* just a reflow issue  Continued appreciation on this...Steph HI Todd, I know this is an old thread but still holds a ton of weight just wanted to ask regarding the 435 deg C. Is the 435 deg. C, the temperature on top of the chip measured by an IR meter? Or the temperature you set on your hot air rework station? My rework station only can go up only about 480 then using an IR meter on top of the chip can only go up to around 230 ~ deg. C. Do I need another rework station? |
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nodols
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by nodols on Jan 22, 2023 1:23:09 GMT -5
This might be cheaper. Flashcat's work pretty well for this type of work. www.embeddedcomputers.net/products/FlashcatUSB_Mach1/The Flashcat Mach 1 is $99 and the TSOP-48 adapter is $18. As I noted, I use one of these for most of my programming needs. I actually have a couple of flashcats. Other models support both NAND as well as having adapters available for 8 pin EEPROM's, NOR Flash parts and piles more. I use the test clip all the time when I have to change the personality firmware on the Main CPU's of an Onkyo because with the test clip, I can change the software with the chip still soldered down.
This model for example has a whole host of adapters you can use for pretty much every programmable device out there. It is also a little less expensive to get started ($44.99) because it is not as fast.
There is a wide variety of adapters available:
And this model also supports most of the test clips (you should confirm with the site owner first. he responds pretty quickly)
HTH Todd Thanks Todd, I'll check them out. |
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Post by tjmotter on Jan 22, 2023 16:04:51 GMT -5
I'll chk out the TI link. Thx! Boy, it is a complicated process. My plan is to not necessarily remove the chip. Just to heat it enough to resolder any loose connections. As for preheating from the bottom....don't remember which receiver, but 1 of them had a load of SMD parts mounted directly on the other side of the PCB from the BGA chip. If I do try to preheat from the bottom, I'll have to be very careful not to blow off any parts. I ordered up a 2nd heat gun where the low temp is 532 F (~278 C). Is that too low to be useful, or would I just need to reflow longer? Or should I stick with the other gun which has the low of 750 F/400 C.
Any obvious indicators that will let me know the solder is melting/has melted under the BGA chip? I have the No Clean flux. Someone mentioned in a video that one indicator is that the flux starts to bubble. Not sure how valid that would be. The first time I did it the flux looked like it evaporated (certainly on top of the chip) but never seemed to bubble.
Of course, this all presumes the chip is OK and it *is* just a reflow issue Continued appreciation on this...Steph HI Todd, I know this is an old thread but still holds a ton of weight just wanted to ask regarding the 435 deg C. Is the 435 deg. C, the temperature on top of the chip measured by an IR meter? Or the temperature you set on your hot air rework station? My rework station only can go up only about 480 then using an IR meter on top of the chip can only go up to around 230 ~ deg. C. Do I need another rework station? The maximum temperature at the top of the chip is not supposed to exceed 260 degrees Celsius. The problem is that with a heat wand and open space all around the chip, it takes quite a bit higher temperatures to get the top of the chip to that point. Also, you will want to work within the time constraints outlined in the document (as much as possible) which show that the you should be aiming for no more than 1 min 30 seconds of high heat. I played with this quite a bit and found that with my soldering station, I needed the heat wand set to 435 degrees seems to achieve that. I have to admit that I have exceeded the 1:30 time recommendation and in some cases, have heated the chip for over 2 min but if that doesn't make the solder go molten, I shut everything down, cool the board down and try to figure out why. I find it really hard to manage the wand, keep my eyes on the temperature probe on the bottom AND use a temp gun to try to track the topside temp so when I first started doing this, I focused on applying heat while keeping one eye on the underside probe (I didn't want it to get so hot that components started falling off) while my wife monitored the topside temp. It turns out that for my setup, 435 was the right answer. HTH |
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nodols
Junior Member
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Post by nodols on Jan 29, 2023 19:56:55 GMT -5
Nice work Todd. Do you offer this repair as a service to repair for others? tibimakai Avatar Jan 30, 2018 at 9:13am tibimakai said: Hi Todd, I see that you are here as well now(from avsforum). I posted there about the 609, that I have and you have offered to repair mine, if you remember. I have replaced the TI chip, but it did not start up. It shows the same symptoms as before. Maybe my soldering wasn't good enough. My first attempt, to this style of chip. The NR609 (and the NR509 and the Integra 20.3) often suffer from corruption of the DSP firmware. This has the same symptoms as a bad DSP chip but is often easier to fix. Onkyo changed their firmware update process to no longer allow network based firmware updates after they found this issue. The DSP is an ARM based design and it runs on a variant of Linux. To make this work, an Onkyo has to first initiate a "Flash aware" shell based on "YAFFS" (Yet Another Flash File System) called "U-boot". This filesystem boots before the OS and its job is to manage the wear on the Flash device but in doing this, it also sets the initial values for things like the Ethernet MAC address and the location of the Linux boot block. Unfortunately, the "network firmware update option" can corrupt these initial settings which means the DSP won't boot Linux (and thus, you get no audio and no network. I have found that this can often be repaired by connecting a PC to the diag port on the DSP/HDMI board. You can make this connection with a basic serial port (since it is Linux based). I use a "bus pirate" for this and set it to terminal mode. Once connected, when you turn the unit on you can watch the boot process and interrupt it. Once you have done this, you can rebuild the environment variables. To start, you first need to figure out what is missing. You can get a read out of the current environment by typing "printenv". The environment should show something like the following: baudrate=115200 bootfile="uImage" verify=n ethaddr=xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx bootargs=console=ttyS1,115200n8 root=/dev/mtdblock8 rw quiet lpj=999424 rootfstype=yaffs mem=56M ip=off setparam=ok stdin=serial stdout=serial stderr=serial ver=U-Boot 1.3.3-svn (Nov 29 2010 - 18:05:03) bootcmd=nboot,jffs2 0xc0200000 0 0x254000 autostart=yes bootdelay=1 dspboot=yes Most of the settings are probably ok but the ethaddr setting will be wrong. To fix this, use the "forceenv" command like this: "forceenv ethaddr=xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx (simply input the 6 HEX address printed on the label on the ethernet port instead of the xx's) Next, save the values (this command will also recalculate the proper checksum as well) "saveenv" if any other variables are missing, add them using the same process Once completed, the firmware should be fixed and the system should boot properly. If not, you may have to find a working system and copy the firmware chip. HTH Todd Not so much of a "service" but I have fixed other peoples systems for them for just the cost of the parts. This is just a hobby for me so I don't make any money at it. In fact, I get most of my dead systems off eBay, repair them and then donate them to charity. Hi Todd, just ordered a USB to RS232 cable, do I need to a Linux based OS or PC with putty will do with monitoring the boot process? |
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Post by tjmotter on Jan 29, 2023 20:18:27 GMT -5
I use a PC with Windows (I have used both Windows 7 and Windows 10) with Putty.
HTH
Todd
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nodols
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by nodols on Jan 31, 2023 13:08:06 GMT -5
I use a PC with Windows (I have used both Windows 7 and Windows 10) with Putty. HTH Todd Received the RS-232c, running on windows 11, putty works perfect. Only thing, I could use it on are on Pioneers. Elite VSX-52 and Elite VSX-60. The VSX-52 has the funky FM issue which tunes to every single frequency. Still navigating on how this all works out. Unfortunately could not try it on my Onkyo's that I've got. They don't have RS232s. HT-470 (TX-NR616), and another HT-270, both no sound. Figured they'll be just for practice as they don't hold value anymore with the latest cheaper receivers and more modern receiver out and in the used market. On a sidenote, for the Pioneers, I've navigated to alot of their websites, and happened to get to a page where they gave codes to many of their receivers. I haven't tried them yet. But does Onkyo have those codes as well? I'm thinking they are codes you can use on putty? Will try to read up more on them codes when I get home from work. |
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Post by johnnyfirpo on Feb 18, 2023 11:58:59 GMT -5
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Post by xXFREDBERTXx on Feb 18, 2023 14:53:04 GMT -5
Sorry to say that but that NEW 85$ DSP you buy is to 1000% a Fake!
These is one that is not so bad sand down and reprint @ least but these have also some markings that don’t match with a real genuine D830K013DZKB5 one!
That these fake 85$ DSP you buy works for know was also already a 50% chance… and you get I guess only a old D830K013BZKB3 or D830K013BZKB4 that was reprint but not a D830K013DZKB5 that’s for sure!
Regards
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Post by johnnyfirpo on Feb 18, 2023 18:04:46 GMT -5
its working :-) , this is a 300mhz board , only a D830K013BZKB3 or a D830K013DZKB5 will work or not ? , the chip was in a unbroken package, clean, perfect solderballs, and the surface of the labeling was also perfect under the microscope,
fake or not the onkyo have a second live for now, i am happy ,
but if you want i can delete my post,
regards
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